DISQUS

Campaspe · 1 year ago

All right, voting "present."

LanceManion · 1 year ago

Siren, are you saying Naturelle isn't bad, she's just drawn that way?

Campaspe · 1 year ago

Precisely.

Dawson is gorgeous and Lee obviously relished shooting her, but she's a cipher onscreen in this movie.

Campaspe · 1 year ago

Lee deserves a lot of the criticism he gets for women characters. Not his strong suit. Doesn't seem to know how to direct women to rich performances. Frequently his actresses are all surface when they're working with him.

Of course I don't think I've seen Dawson in anything else, maybe she's always wanting.

LanceManion · 1 year ago

Ed Byrne made pretty good use of her in Sidewalks of New York. She looks hard to film to me.

LanceManion · 1 year ago

Why didn't Lumet do anything about Serpico's kvetching?

LanceManion · 1 year ago

How do you make a movie where you don't like your own main character anyway?

Campaspe · 1 year ago

I think he definitely admired Frank Serpico but the mere fact that Lumet barely discusses the movie tells me maybe he doesn't rate it highly. He discusses Prince of the City a LOT in contrast. He discusses Murder on the Orient Express more than Serpico.

That's a great movie but didn't fit with my theme. I may revisit it anyway.

LanceManion · 1 year ago

Maybe he felt POTC needed some talking up.

Campaspe · 1 year ago

Possibly. It didn't do well at the box office, did it? I don't remember.

LanceManion · 1 year ago

I sort of remember a lot of dismissive comparisons to Serpico.

Campaspe · 1 year ago

ha, and now when I was researching Serpico, I came across a lot of dismissive comparisons to POTC. I definitely think it's regarded as a run-up to the later movie now and most critics review it for Pacino's performance. I do think it's a visually very rich and interesting movie, though.

LanceManion · 1 year ago

Serpico may be a bigger part of Pacino's biography than it is of Lumet's. I wish it was a bigger part of Treat Williams. I thought he was going to be BIG!!!

Campaspe · 1 year ago

Everybody did. Is there any consensus on what the heck happened to his career?

LanceManion · 1 year ago

I've never heard one.

Campaspe · 1 year ago

Since no one is here, I'll amuse myself by going over some of the things I didn't mention. I'll start with Barry Pepper, whom I loved in 25th Hour. Philip Seymour Hoffman is worshipped in whatever he does but Pepper really has the standout supporting role, a Wall Street guy who could be very unsympathetic but turns out not to be.

In fact, Pepper might have made more logical casting for Monty although of course he isn't a star like Norton. A lot of the movie focuses on Monty's fear that his looks will single him out. And with Norton's rather ordinary looks that is a bit of a puzzler. Pepper, much more handsome, would have been more logical mouthing the same fears.

LanceManion · 1 year ago

A Wall Street guy unsympathetic? No!

Campaspe · 1 year ago

Right, I rewatched a bit and kept fighting off the feeling that the wrong guy was going to jail.

LanceManion · 1 year ago

I see your point. But I can't see Pepper as anybody but Frank. One of those cases where the actor turned into the character and the character turned into a real person.

LanceManion · 1 year ago

First scene of Frank at work is great, a little movie on its own.

Campaspe · 1 year ago

In some ways Pepper's character is also more interesting than Monty, who also kvetches a lot (and with far less justification than Serpico).

Campaspe · 1 year ago

He is also in my favorite scene, the one played with PSH in front of the window overlooking Ground Zero. Although it was a little disorienting to me because they were obviously in the World Financial Center, which isn't a residential building and never has been.

LanceManion · 1 year ago

I have to admit, I can't stand Monty. Can't stand him. I hate his haircut. I hate his goatee. If Pepper and Brian Cox weren't in the movie I wouldn't have been able to watch it. That's not to knock Ed Norton.

LanceManion · 1 year ago

Although, if there is a knock on Norton it's that he has a way of disappearing too far inside his characters and leaving behind none of his own charisma and likability.

Campaspe · 1 year ago

Monty could have used some more charisma from Norton, it would have made you wonder less why his friends bothered at all.

LanceManion · 1 year ago

That's a problem. But some of it's solved by Jake being such a loser himself. Frank might be loyal to the Monty that could have been. Jake is just loyal in a desperate do unto others way.

LanceManion · 1 year ago

His father says that Monty has a gift for making friends, but then he describes him as "strong" and having his mother's backbone. Makes me think part of Monty's problem is that his father thought he was somebody else.

Campaspe · 1 year ago

Yeah, his father obviously thinks Monty has some character qualities that he just doesn't. Monty's best attributes are an ability to retain friends, kindness to animals and enough self-knowledge to be self-loathing. He also has nerve, which he shows in the confrontation with the mobster. Beyond that he's an unappealing character for sure.

Campaspe · 1 year ago

Monty isn't likable, I honestly couldn't stand him either. But the movie caught me up anyway, with its fatalistic viewpoint and the way Monty, though a creep, is working at trying to not be such a creep.

It suddenly occurs to me that nearly all the movies in this series have someone who's trying to become more of a human being... or should be.

LanceManion · 1 year ago

True. Sweet Smell of Success having the main "should be's".

LanceManion · 1 year ago

I just gave some Wall Street guys 700 billion dollars entirely out of sympathy for them.

Campaspe · 1 year ago

My favorite scene in Serpico: Pacino and his new partner in the Bronx. Serpico has just seen his partner repeatedly flush some hapless gambler's head in the toilet for a $300 past due bribe. They go back to the guy's apartment (hideous decor, really amazing choices there) and the partner is offering to hang onto Frank's share. The partner obviously doesn't trust Serpico, but what's marvelous is Pacino's quiet, monosyllabic playing. Pacino's body isn't tense, he is just concentrating on his business, but his loathing for the cop is so apparent it's like a third actor sharing the room with them.

LanceManion · 1 year ago

C, did you have any scenes in mind that paired these two movies in your head?

Campaspe · 1 year ago

It's more that Lee and Lumet are paired as New York filmmakers in my head. Lee has often cited Lumet as a favorite, particularly Dog Day Afternoon. They share a social conscience married to a desire to make movies that work well as suspense thrillers. These two movies did strike me as having definite thematic similarities--city in crisis, corruption, persistence. Although Norton and Pacino injured in the cars were strikingly similar shots. There is also a great deal of each protagonist dealing with people he doesn't feel he can trust--loyalty and betrayal are also major threads.

LanceManion · 1 year ago

You could have taken his name off the film and told me that Lumet had direceted 25th Hour and I'd almost have believed you, although I can't think of anything Lumet has done that's as underplayed. But i can't think of anything else Lee's done that's as underplayed.

Campaspe · 1 year ago

25th Hour is more of a moody character piece that anything else I have seen from Lee. Perhaps that owes something to the novel it's based on, but I think it was also linked to the decision to use the 9/11 dialogue and imagery. New Yorkers are acutely sensitive to anything remotely exploitative of that day, and I thought Lee integrated it perfectly and gave the story more resonance than perhaps it had originally had.

Some of The Verdict has the same quietly despairing tone as 25th Hour.

LanceManion · 1 year ago

Good call there. They have a similar look even. I'm picturing a scene of Newman standing on a doorstep. I think the color of the light in the neighborhoods is very similar. There's no real sunshine in either movie.

Campaspe · 1 year ago

Most of 25th Hour is night, but the sunshine on the drive to the prison is also wan and pallid.

There was an amusing thread on IMDB of people asking whether the final dream sequence was real, and the New Yorkers pointing out with varying degrees of impatience that noooo, you see, they drove PAST the bridge ...

LanceManion · 1 year ago

What's your vote?

Campaspe · 1 year ago

He goes to prison. I don't think it's a vote thing, they drive past the point where the father says he could peel off and Norton could escape. Lee doesn't telegraph it at all which is why I think some people regard it as open-ended. But it's really not.

LanceManion · 1 year ago

I think it's also in the final shots of Jake and Frank. They're too sad.

LanceManion · 1 year ago

Btw, what bridge is that that Frank's looking at?

Campaspe · 1 year ago

I confess to having forgotten the shot...

LanceManion · 1 year ago

Same location where Monty blows off one of his regular customers. Lots of benches.

Campaspe · 1 year ago

Battery Park? I am not sure what you can see from there. Maybe the Brooklyn.

That Fuzzy Bastard · 1 year ago

Anyone who didn't know about Spike Lee's "Dog Day Afternoon" obsession would be pretty quickly cued in by "Inside Man", which pays all kinds of tribute to that flick. Oddly, Lee is often a warmer filmmaker than Lumet when it comes to dealing with crowds---his crowds are way more helpful than Lumet's seething mass. But that may also have to do with a change in NYC.

tomwatson · 1 year ago

Hi guys - I'm under the weather, but wanted to drop in to say thanks for a great festival - enjoyed it tremendously.

Serpico is such a 1973 flick - god the look and feel of a bygone age. They talk about 40s noir - man, to me it's 70s NY.

I confess to not having seen 25th hour, but I could see Edward Norton dropping in on Serpico - Life on Mars style (a show that even in the UK original, owed a debt to Serpico).

Campaspe · 1 year ago

HI Tom! that was me last week. Something going around. 25th Hour is available for Netflix instant viewing if you are inclined. Excellent movie.

I agree, Serpico is almost like a sociological document in addition to being a movie. You get such a detailed view of that side of the city. I love his Greenwich Village apartment too.

tomwatson · 1 year ago

Yeah, it's a lost world - like we're still walking around on the bones.

You guys wonder above what happened to Treat Williams. I'd ask: "What happened to Al Pacino?"

Campaspe · 1 year ago

Well, Pacino did a number of great movies after Serpico. It was sort of the opposite problem. Williams never became a big star (I just looked at his IMDB filmography and I'm damned if I know what the man was doing for about three years after Pince of the City, when he should have been red-hot and capitalizing on that performance).

Pacino, on the other hand, became HUGE and I think eventually he was able to indulge his worst habits as a actor to the point where they became ingrained. He's still capable of great stuff, it's a matter of telling him not to substitute volume for emotion, for one thing ...

LanceManion · 1 year ago

Pacino delivered two what should have been career-killing performances after Serpico and survived them. Cruising and Scarface. Three if you count And Justice For All.

tomwatson · 1 year ago

I think Scarface was pretty good - not the brilliance other see - but he totally inhabited that character. Unfortunately, he also learned to scream. And scream. And scream.

And scream s'more.

Campaspe · 1 year ago

Haven't seen Cruising, was always put off by that one. I think he's quite good in Scarface although I have never thawed out toward the movie for reasons I guess I could post about sometime.

But he was good in Glengarry, also Carlito's Way and I know Mr. C liked him in Donnie Brasco, which I haven't seen. Even his performance in GIII has it moments. The old Pacino is certain still there, he just needs a director who can still get it out of him.

tomwatson · 1 year ago

Glengarry yeah, he's more cut out for those roles really. Carlito was ok, but it was Penn's flick to me, but yes quite good.

LanceManion · 1 year ago

Think it's all been down hill from Serpico for him, Tom?

tomwatson · 1 year ago

Since Scarface, certainly - and not much between that and Dog Day. I mean, that was really his brief run - Godfather, Serpico, GFII, Dog Day Afternoon. (I'm not fond of And Justice for All or Crusing). Then a comeback in middle age for Scarface. Then not much. Just the screaming.

He's literally acted his way out of the hall of fame.

LanceManion · 1 year ago

Dick Tracy. You forgot Dick Tracy.

Campaspe · 1 year ago

oy vey. I wish I could forget Dick Tracy.

Tony Dayoub · 1 year ago

Hi folks. I'm chiming in because I feel compelled to bring up what a tremendous performance Pacino gave as Carlito Brigante in De Palma's "Carlito's Way". Cahiers du Cinema even had the nerve to name that movie the best of the 90s. if I'm not mistaken. Don't know if I'd go that far, but I think it comes pretty close.

Campaspe · 1 year ago

Hi Tony, thanks for the vote. I also mentioned Carlito's Way up a bit too. I think Pacino's as talented as he ever was but he has some tricks he falls back on in certain circumstances. Like Scent of a Woman -- not too many people sticking up for that Oscar-winner. Hard to believe it's the same actor as in Serpico. He shouts on occasion in Serpico but he has many, many moments that are played entirely with looks and gestures.

Tony Dayoub · 1 year ago

Don't remind me about his overacting. To think, Michael Corleone is so underplayed (at least in the first two Godfathers). That character has the most complete and dynamic arc an American performer has ever had the privilege to play.

The year that Pacino won for Scent, I remember he was also nominated for Supporting Actor for Glengarry, a role I would have been happy if he won for. And Denzel surely deserved Best Actor for Malcolm X that year (full cicle back to Lee).

LanceManion · 1 year ago

Tony, nice job of bringing it back to Lee.

I'm partial to his role in Donnie Brasco. I think he did ok in The Insider too. He's rarely paired with another actor who can force him to play within the scene instead of to the back of a very large theater. In Glengary he was surrounded by guys who could out act him if they had a mind to. I think it calmed him down.

Merchant of Venice is another one I like a lot.

That Fuzzy Bastard · 1 year ago

Love Donnie Brasco. It's a really brave performance from Pacino---he plays a guy who's an utterly uncharismatic loser, in the worst set of glasses ever. I think that's what's so frustrating about Pacino---he can *still* pull out a great performance when a director demands it of him, and so often doesn't. On some level, this makes him a good actor---he gives the director what the director wants. Unfortunately, he lacks the instinct for self-preservation a lot of Hollywood stars have, so when the director wants bullshit, that's what they get.

tomwatson · 1 year ago

C - the STAR part I can't argue with. Yeah, he was a star.

LanceManion · 1 year ago

Just for the record, I don't believe Monty's an actual drug dealer, the way I believe Frank is a trader and Jake's an English teacher and Doyle's a good dog. He's about as real a person as Prince Mishkin in The Idiot.

Campaspe · 1 year ago

that's one key difference between the two movies -- one is almost obsessively realistic, the other one emphatically not.

LanceManion · 1 year ago

Monty's not a Christ figure, but he's definitely a sacrificial lamb. He's symbolic of something New York is cutting out of itself.

LanceManion · 1 year ago

He's the pseudo-hipster in Jake, the quasi-outlaw in Frank. He's what's most ridiculous and pretentious in both of them. He's what's keeping them both from growing up.

LanceManion · 1 year ago

By the way, anybody seen Miracle at St Anna?

Campaspe · 1 year ago

No, but I want to despite the reviews. Summer of Sam got pretty bad reviews and I liked that one.

I just connect with Lee as a filmmaker. I think he knows his film history but uses it in a really intelligent, seamless way. It isn't like "ooh, now spot THIS cool reference!"

Campaspe · 1 year ago

Well, I am fading and am going to sign off a bit early. Thanks all for this great run at Wednesday Night at the Movies. It's been fun!

LanceManion · 1 year ago

Goodnight, C. And thank you. It was a fun, fun series. I assume you're already planning your next one?

Vanwall · 1 year ago

Jeez, I'm always late to the buffet. I can speak better for Serpico than 25th Hour - only saw parts of it before the kid took the DVD back to his place...along with a few of mine. I seem to have the bad luck of reading the books before the movies are made, and am generally disappointed. MASH, Serpico, and a few others have been cruelly excised into a kind of dual-personality limbo for me - Serpico was enough like the true story to pass as a good adaptation, tho rather dry and slow. Personally, i preferred Across 110th Street for crooked NYPD flicks, and it had tremendous energy compared to Serpico, plus Pacino had a whinier voice than Yaphet Kotto. I saw Serpico in the theater on its first run, tho, and it had a full house - Pacino was a magnet and benefited from his genuinely magnetic performance in The Godfather, but I think Serpico was not a good role for him IMHO, altho he struggled valiantly like the marble of Laocoön against the serpents - perhaps that was what caught the Oscar Eye. He had to carry the whole thing around on his back without the benefit of a strong supporting cast - few of them helped, and a lot of 'em hindered - Eda-Young was totally unconvincing as his girl. She said "Paco" like she was a Midwestern tourist ordering a hot dog from a pushcart. Pacino was already starting his yelping, screeching, bellowing stuff in small ways that irked me some, but he managed to convey the crushing day-to-day of possible betrayal...atho maybe that was just the serpents of the production. Lumet was right in not dwelling on Serpico, but maybe it has hidden charms for some.

MaPeel · 1 year ago

I went to see 25th hour in a mall in Pest (as in Budapest) in 2003. My friend and I didn't know anything about it, except that it was playing in English. I was literally stunned by the tribute in lights and WTC plot points. All I could do is sob. I think it's the worse when memories comes up unexpectedly, like in a Hungarian mall. I barely remember the film. Should probably watch it again.