DISQUS

Jerry Prager · 2 years ago

Not having read what you read certainly the proposition in itself sounds foolish enough. In fact, I suspect the emergence of a billion web logs is proof that the judges of new fiction will not be a cluster of "good" novelists but a cyberspace full of people deciding for themselves.

John Baker · 2 years ago

The concept of suppressing bad writers has not entered my neck of the woods yet. And my experience suggests that if someone really wants to write, you wouldn't be able to stop them anyway. The urge is often all-consuming.
Having said that, I do believe that there are at least some objective criteria by which we might judge a certain kind of goodness and a certain kind of badness.
And I also think that all writing, apart from obviously formulaic stuff, is experimental writing. But is it all art? A tentative answer would be, no. Writing is a craft. It sometimes aspires to be art and there are certainly some novels which are works of art. But only a small proportion of written narratives can claim that distinction.

Jerry Prager · 2 years ago

I certainly regard writing as an obsessive compulsive behaviour and advise people who CAN stop to do so before they become disillusioned with the whole thing.
For those who can't stop, craft is the place to send them. I'm a fan of William Zissner books On Writing Well etc.
I think it's possible for most people to learn the craft of writing. Whether they ever produce a master work is beside the point to me. In another context I mentioned that words have power. Putting words on pages empowers people at some level. And the more craft they have, the more likely they are to at least produce a few powerful sentences in a life time. That may not sound like much on one level, but to me it's an accomplishment.
One of my favourite short stories is Leaf by Niggle by JRR Tolkein, in which Niggle, a painter, lives in a land that prizes duty to the community and his neighbours above all things. All Niggle wants to do is paint, and he's taken away by the authorities for being self-absorbed, eventually his paintings are used by his neighbours to patch their houses. In a Kafkayesque turn of events Niggle essentially dies and goes to another land which happens to be the landscape he used to paint, only more magnificent, and yet somehow his creation at the same time. In the end, all that is left of Niggle in the world the story started in, is a fragmanet of his favourite painting hanging in an art gallery, Leaf By Niggle.
That TS Eliot line about using fragments to shore against his ruins.
That's what I feel like I'm doing most of the time.

Kathleen Maher · 2 years ago

I agree that one good line is worth a lifetime of lesser ones, and a beautiful phrase can only spring from great hope and faith.
My bias, though, (just semantics, I'll grant you that) is that creative writing is art. There are mountains of bad art, mind you, among all kinds of media. Art (such as painting, drawing, sculpture, photography) is art if the person making it intended it that way. Creative writing, music, dance, singing, movies and television shows with scripts and stories, if the intention is right, and live theatre: they're all art. Most likely flawed art, bad art, and possibly out-right pathetic art, but still--art.
The definition need not apply only to such glorious works as the Sistine Chapel. Being an artist is a way of life.
As for crafts? Macrame, crocheting, cooking, house painting, hair-cutting, oragami: those are crafts. And even the, if the haircutter seriously intends every the haircut as a work of art, so be it.
Being an artist is a way of life. And yes, some artists produce deplorable work. Worse, some are fakes; their way of life requires no more creative risk than a house painter's. But a few poseurs does not negate the whole concept. A fully-imagined, creative work is not analogous to a sweater, because no matter how exquisite a sweater it may be, it still takes its form from straightforward directions, and any soul-dredging involved in its creation was incidental.

bosco · 2 years ago

All I know is that I would rather live next to a bad fiction writer than a bad drummer.
Is writing art or craft? What a muddle. When we learn how to write, we are practicing our craft. When we use our newly acquired skills in pursuit of truth, or beauty, or self-expression, we seek to create art. Is it good art or bad art? That, I agree with Kathleen, is entirely subjective to each reader.

Jerry Prager · 2 years ago

The only problems I have with artists are a) their tendency to think that what they are doing is more important to the world than what other people are doing and
b)their lives often display a deplorable lack of artistry.

If the question is would I rather live next door to a great artist or a great neighbour ? I'd rather live next door to a great neighbour. Just like I'd rather have a great mechanic fix my car than a great artist.
But that's unfair, because the discussion is would I rather have a great mechanic fix my car or a bad mechanic, and the answer is obvious.
Just as I would rather read a novel by a great writer than a bad writer. But would I support anything that prevents any writer from trying to find a readership ? No.
I might try and stop a bad drummer from staying my neighbour however.

Brutus · 2 years ago

Willing to risk bad writing? I would rather that most writers simply learn their craft well. Frankly, most don't, despite being able to write grammatically and insert a few high value words extracted from a thesaurus.

I've heard it put that there are too few writers who truly have something to say, but a mass of would-be writers who desperatedly want to say something. Sometimes even established writers fall into that second category.

John Baker · 2 years ago

“There is no ‘good art’ or ‘bad art.’ There is only art, and precious little of it.”
Raymond Chandler.

bosco · 2 years ago

"Art is a marriage of the conscious and the unconscious."
Jean Cocteau.

Kathleen Maher · 1 year ago

Kosta, Thanks for commenting. It's great to think anyone finds the discussion interesting more than nine months after I made my plea in response to articles calling for the silencing of fiction writers, as if they were a much more odious bane upon society than uninspired, unskilled guitar players, drummers, dancers, painters, or sculptors.
My intention was never to ask that people pay attention to what doesn't interest them. It was more to pose the question, What great harm can a struggling, stifled writer inflict upon a society so sick with evil?
Those who appreciate art, music, movies, TV, and writing participate in creative work as its audience. And art requires an audience to exist, no matter how ephemerally. Otherwise, it's only an abstract concept, albeit one that's cost the deluded artist possible income from doing something--anything--else, untold time, and social interaction.
Killing bad writer's isn't necessary much as one may detest the sorry beings. They'll die soon enough, poor and mentally troubled, only to be replaced by other striving souls, a rare one or two of whom may manage a meagre success.