newcritics - Latest Comments in “They become their parents.”

Re: “They become their parents.”

Rosie — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 18:17:44 -0000

"Maybe after their divorce they would have individually turned to other thingsÃ¢â‚¬â€œEst, fundamentalist Christianity, or scientologyÃ¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬â€œwhich also would have left them unfulfilled."

How do you know that? How do you know any of these religions would have left Ben and Elaine unfulfilled?

Re: “They become their parents.”

STaugustine — Wed, 18 Jun 2008 19:08:34 -0000

Shouldn't we bring Buck Henry into this conversation? (Rummages in knapsack for Ouija board).

Failing Buck's participation, I'd like to point out that we're dealing with material, in The Graduate, that was meant to be commercial in a cashing-in-on-the-youthquake sort of way, and that entails pretty strict formal limits (no less so than with, say, Billy Jack or Bonnie and Clyde): the point of the exercise was flattering the grand self-perceptions of postWar youth. And flattery is usually heavy on the bullsh*t.

Anyway, as far as Nichols' comment goes, isn't it more likely that Elaine and Ben became their grandparents, instead? That's what *I* did.

For a wittier, less bullsh*tty take on everything from the generation gap to infidelity to adulthood as a Faustian pact (with cinema's greatest sustained satirical riff on anti-Semitism thrown in on top of it), I'd put more energy into unearthing Polanski's Rosemary's Baby, which came out just a year after The Graduate, and featured far swingier actors.

Oh, and btw:

http://staugustinian.wordpress.com/category/why...

Re: “They become their parents.”

sophronia — Fri, 13 Jun 2008 03:59:56 -0000

It is a very well-made film, and for something with such flat characters it holds your attention throughout. But as for what it's supposed to mean, I don't have a clue.

Re: “They become their parents.”

sophronia — Fri, 13 Jun 2008 03:56:53 -0000

I've always felt like I don't really get this movie. My parents adore it, and they are exactly the sort of people described in post 22. To me, it was just a lot of 1960s cliches, like the fetishization of innocence and the revelation that the suburbs are full of moral degenerates. Dustin Hoffman was annoying and his character, in my 1980s perspective, completely unbelievable, while Elaine is nothing more than a cipher. There's a reason why the only animated conversation between the two in the film has no sound, and it's because nobody on earth could imagine anything they would have to say to each other. I guess the appeal is that they are such blanks that everybody can project something of themselves into their situation.

Re: “They become their parents.”

Victoria — Fri, 13 Jun 2008 00:00:32 -0000

Oops. I somehow lost the last line above - source for that is internet movie database.

Re: “They become their parents.”

Victoria — Thu, 12 Jun 2008 23:59:02 -0000

Dawn, there's also another story about the ending: On "Inside the Actors Studio", director Mike Nichols said that the final "sobering" emotion that Benjamin and Elaine go through was because he had just been shouting at the two of them to laugh in the scene. The actors were so scared that after laughing they stopped, scared. Nichols liked it so much, he kept it.

Re: “They become their parents.”

tina oiticica harris — Thu, 12 Jun 2008 23:42:20 -0000

I was taken abcak with the proposition, "they become their parents." I do think this film shows a segent of the sixties population such as those who worked for the USA abroad and got loaded on booze, and never took notice of the Vietnam war.
Now I mus think this film over, after having watched it so many times.

Re: “They become their parents.”

Dawn — Thu, 12 Jun 2008 15:26:50 -0000

Sorry I missed the live blogging.

I wanted to add that I read that in the very last scene Dustin Hoffman had a line to say in the back of the bus, but he forgot what it was. That is why she looks at him expectantly and he can't come up with anything, then they both just ride. Nichols thought it was better that way than with the dialogue that was supposed to be there. I've always loved that scene.

I like to think that Ben and Elaine don't stay together very long after that. She appreciates he was her catalyst to get off the fast track to misery, but then goes on and has another life. Ben builds on his one spark of initiative (or not).

Re: “They become their parents.”

Tom W. — Thu, 12 Jun 2008 14:39:07 -0000

Hey, I thought this was an excellent debut - I came in with less than a abundant appreciation of The Graduate, and now I want to watch it in full again to see how everyone's insight stacks up.

And I can't wait till next - that's a movie I love: In the Heat of the Night.

Re: “They become their parents.”

Dan Leo — Thu, 12 Jun 2008 02:08:43 -0000

Sorry, Lance, took a break to do some of my own stuff.

Is Nichols misogynistic? Who the hell knows? It seems like he's pretty rough on the male gender too, but on the other hand I just read your addendum post on "Charlie Wilson" where you talk about how he (or Sorkin, or both of them in cahoots) tossed some pretty weak-sister female parts into that movie.

You know what I saw in the fairly recent past and really hated? And this is gonna get me in trouble because a lot of people think it's great, but I couldn't stand "Virginia Woolf". The movie, not the writer. It's been too long since I've read the play for me to say if I would now hate the play, too, but I suspect I wouldn't be too crazy about it. I just thought the movie was so unbelievable, and unbelievably tiresome, and I didn't think the fault lay with the actors. I thought the problem was the script. But when I saw that movie as a kid I thought it was great, God knows why, maybe because everyone said it was great.

On the other hand I'd be interested in checking out "Catch-22" and "Carnal Knowledge" again. After twenty years or more I can still recall some of Nicholson's line-readings in "Carnal". God he was good. And I remember Art Garfunkel being quite acceptable in that and in "Catch-22".

Sometimes an entertainer who's not really a trained actor can be pretty good if the real actors in the show help them out. Classic example: Frank Sinatra and the great Monty Clift in "From Here to Eternity". Slightly less classic example: Dean Martin and Monty Clift in "The Young Lions". Some artists are so good they make everyone else look good.

Re: “They become their parents.”

Victoria — Thu, 12 Jun 2008 00:33:11 -0000

Awfully good job. Lance. --- But for the sound of gunshots in the neighborhood... right close, I might add... I would have been here longer. - I gotta say I'm having a hard time going with the misogyny notion vis-a-vis that film list. And, of course, I've read nothing but good things from the women he's worked with. But it would be interesting if a man served actual women well, while creating characters that revealed something else entirely. Interesting, but I don't see it here. His humor with May indicates his interest in playing with difficult types. But how is that misogynistic?

Re: “They become their parents.”

M. George Stevenson — Thu, 12 Jun 2008 00:25:38 -0000

Saw the movie for the 30th anni, read the book not long afterwards. Charles Webb's novel, published in 1965 if memory serves, is an almost explicit "On the Road" parody, as if Kerouac's journey were undertaken by an upper-middle class kid driven by the same quest for sincerity and realness but utterly agnostic about the existence of either. Quite an impressive performance and deadpan-funny as hell. As is what became of Webb, who drifted, wrote a little, married a woman, divorced her but still lived with her as dual caretakers of a nudist camp (as of 10-15 years ago). It was impossible not to see Hoffman while reading the book, but it wasn't much of an issue as the deadpan was completely congruent with his reading of the role.

Re the thread, which I just finished, I really like the Nichols-as-Ben notion, which fits perfectly with the novel's idea that people want realness but, at a certain income level, don't really want to get stuck there and so work out how to get along in the comfort zone.

As for the look, as someone who grew up visiting SoCal annually during the time in question, it's so dead on as to be scary -- Nichols' East Coast eye really getting the subtle differences in between Connecticutt and Pasadena high-WASP, which is also why William Daniels is so perfect -- an obviously East Coast guy who went to USC and stayed.

Re the ending, I've always loved it because it so perfectly captured the aftermath of any dramatic gesture made by a sentient being -- OMG, I did it!/OMG, what have I done? -- AND made a visual contrast to the opening image of motion (this notion is the fruit of a freshman year weekend in Spring 1977 during which I saw The Graduate and Carnal Knowledge as a double bill and a second double bill of An American in Paris and Meet Me in St. Louis and became convince of the auteur theory).
Sorry to wax... (and what's up with the time stamping?)

Re: “They become their parents.”

Chuck Tryon — Thu, 12 Jun 2008 00:18:56 -0000

It looks like the party is over. I sort of feel like one of the wedding guests watching as th e bus drives away, but I'll throw in my $.02 about a few things.

I only discovered this film as a teen in the 1980s, but I think I related to its critique of conformity, the restless energy that made the film feel "new" even though it was--at the time--about 20 years old. But that probably says something about growing up in Reaganland.

That being said, certain scenes in The Graduate teach beautifully. the sound during the scuba scene really captures Hoffman's isolation brilliantly. It's an incredibly seductive film in so many ways.

I do think the comments about Nichols' female characters make a lot of sense. In fact, I found Closer somewhat troubling for that very reason.

More later if others join in again...

Re: “They become their parents.”

donna darko — Thu, 12 Jun 2008 00:18:45 -0000

Sure thing. Good night.

Re: “They become their parents.”

Lance Mannion — Thu, 12 Jun 2008 00:12:09 -0000

Goodnight, donna. Thanks for joining in.

Getting late for me too. Lurkers, I hope you're there. I was expecting a few more people and I hope the reason they didn't show wasn't the awful weather in the Midwest. That is, I hope everybody out that way is ok.

Thanks, Jason, Tom, Victoria, AG, and Dan too.

If you're showing up here late, please feel free to leave your thoughts. Like I said, the thread's staying open all week.

Goodnight.

Unplug the coffee pot before you go, please?

Re: “They become their parents.”

Lance Mannion — Thu, 12 Jun 2008 00:08:53 -0000

Sorry, donna, I guess I was typing while you were answering.

It's been too long since I've seen Carnal Knowledge. I'm afraid to look at it again. Can Art Garfunkel act?

Re: “They become their parents.”

donna darko — Thu, 12 Jun 2008 00:08:10 -0000

I scared them off and will leave you to others!

Good discussion. Thanks, Lance.

Re: “They become their parents.”

donna darko — Thu, 12 Jun 2008 00:03:46 -0000

Lance, I answered you.

Carnal Knowledge is also based static women roles.

Re: “They become their parents.”

Lance Mannion — Thu, 12 Jun 2008 00:02:16 -0000

At least donna's still here.

I think you're right. People-hating seems to be one of Nichols' hobbies.

I haven't seen Closer. Virginia Wolf, The Graduate, Postcards From the Edge, Working Girl, Primary Colors, and Charlie Wilson's War all contain variations on a type of woman---the domineering scold who bullies and belittles and bosses all the men and at least one young woman, often her daughter or a daughterly type. But I'm not sure if he's drawn to the movies by those characters themselves or by the opportunities they give to his favorite actresses to strut their stuff.

Re: “They become their parents.”

Lance Mannion — Wed, 11 Jun 2008 23:56:33 -0000

Sounds like the sound of silence.

Re: “They become their parents.”

Lance Mannion — Wed, 11 Jun 2008 23:55:33 -0000

What's that I hear?

Re: “They become their parents.”

donna darko — Wed, 11 Jun 2008 23:54:58 -0000

There's a streak of misanthope not just misogyny in Closer. His women are static and conventional or victims of sexism i.e. Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? The Graduate, Working Girl, Regarding Henry, Postcards from the Edge, Closer.

Re: “They become their parents.”

Lance Mannion — Wed, 11 Jun 2008 23:54:39 -0000

Things are growing quiet. Too quiet.

Re: “They become their parents.”

Lance Mannion — Wed, 11 Jun 2008 23:49:56 -0000

Dan, maybe we can make that a future series for Wednesday Night at the Movies.
"Great Films That End With Dustin Hoffman on a Bus."

Re: “They become their parents.”

Lance Mannion — Wed, 11 Jun 2008 23:46:26 -0000

And like I said, the movie completely ignores the politics of the time.

Donna, I don't think the lurkers are going to help us out, so feel free to give us your answer.